Oliver Stone - The Putin Interviews

OS:The Snowden affair, in terms of the US-Russia relationship, seemed to turn—was a big deal for the neo-conservative movement in the US. And the neocons seemed to focus in on Russia once again. It wasn’t too long afterward that the Ukraine issue came up.

VP:Yes, that’s true. Probably we can talk more about it tomorrow. But as to Snowden I think I’ve elaborated on our position.

OS:As a realist, as a political realist, I think I would consider Snowden a pawn in the game.

VP:I think you’re mistaken. He would have been a pawn if he had been a traitor. And he’s no traitor. Well, listen to my position as to what he has done. I think he’s still a personality and he has a position in his own right and he’s fighting for this position. He’s defending it. And he spares no effort in this fight.

OS:So under these circumstances, in this three-year period that you have given him asylum, you would not return him under any circumstances to the United States?

VP:No, under no circumstances. Because he’s no criminal.

OS:In your law he did not break the law?

VP:Our American partners say he has violated the law. But in Russia, he has violated no laws. And there is no inter-governmental treaty between the US and Russia on extradition because our American partners refused to sign this agreement. When criminals who had committed crimes in Russia fled to the United States, the US refused to extradite those criminals to us. We are a sovereign state and we cannot decide on extradition without reciprocity.

OS:Are you saying that if the US signed that agreement then Snowden would come under consideration to be returned?

VP:Certainly, we have such an agreement with Armenia, and one of our military men committed a crime in Armenia. And in accordance with this treaty, he would have to stand trial in Armenia.

OS:So if the United States wanted Snowden badly enough they would sign an extradition treaty with you?

VP:They should have done it earlier. It’s too late now. Because the law cannot be retroactive. So if we sign this treaty in the future, this law will only be effective with regards to cases that arise after this treaty has been signed.

OS:Okay—one last question. They revoked his passport in the air. [43] “AP Source: NSA leaker Snowden’s passport revoked,” Ibid. They knew he was going through Moscow. Many people believe that it was the intention of the United States to stick Snowden in Russia because this would be the best place for him to be reviled and to be called a traitor.

VP:I don’t believe that. Nor do I believe that the American intelligence service were the ones to organize the terrorist attacks in New York.

OS:I didn’t say that. I’m just saying—

VP:I know you’re not saying that. I’m just saying that I do not believe this version of events. Nor do I believe that they organized Snowden’s flight to Moscow.

OS:No, that was organized by WikiLeaks. WikiLeaks did a very good job. They had, I’m told, 25-plus tickets to come out of Hong Kong so that they didn’t want anybody to know he was going. When he was in the air, I believe it came out from the Hong Kong authorities, or possibly Wikileaks, that Snowden was going to Moscow. And at that point he did have a safe passage to Ecuador and to Cuba. And he was welcome in Venezuela, as well as in Bolivia. So he had a destination. It would have worked. The question remains to me—why didn’t the US authorities let him go through Moscow to Latin America? If they wanted to snatch him in a commando raid they could have done a far easier job of it in Venezuela or Bolivia probably than in Russia.

VP:They just acted unprofessionally. I don’t think they did it on purpose. They were acting under emotions. And they were very nervous, very anxious. And in such cases with intelligence matters you should never be nervous. You should keep calm. They should have let him climb on a plane and then make this plane stop at one of the airports on the way.

OS:You think they could have?

VP:Yes, sure, why not. They managed to stop the plane of the Bolivian president. [44] Background Information: The US infuriated Bolivia by forcing the presidential plane of President Evo Morales to land because it wrongly suspected Morales of carrying Snowden upon the plane. See, “Bolivia: Presidential plane forced to land after false rumors of Snowden aboard,” Catherine E. Shoichet, CNN (July 23, 2013). Retrieved at: http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/02/world/americas/bolivia-presidential-plane/

OS:Stunning.

VP:It’s just outrageous. They’re acting with impunity. And yet they were bold enough to do it. Just imagine if they hadn’t revoked his passport. They could have let him climb on a civil aircraft and while it was flying over Europe, according to some technical matters, they could have made the plane stop.

OS:Unless they wanted him here in Moscow to embarrass.

VP:I don’t think so, because that’s too subtle for them.

OS:Really?

VP:I don’t think so. And besides, he’s sitting here. And what is he doing? He’s not doing our bidding—he’s doing everything he does of his own volition.

OS:Yes, and he’s been effective in the United States and in Europe as well. Congress has looked at reform. Our courts have looked at the laws and have struck some down. That’s not to say they’re being carried out, but several courts have judged them illegal. This illegal bulk surveillance. So he has been effective. [45] Background Information: See, “Congress Passes NSA surveillance reform in vindication for Snowden, Bulk collection of Americans’ phone records to end as US Senate passes USA Freedom Act” Sabrina Siddiqui, The Guardian (June 3, 2015). Retrieved at: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/02/congress-surveillance-reform-edward-snowden

VP:If they had detained Snowden somewhere on his way to Latin America, this never would have happened. That’s why I’m quite confident that the American authorities were just acting under the pressure of circumstances and they have made many mistakes.

OS:Okay, fair enough.

VP:Their mistakes are what saved Snowden because otherwise he would be in prison now. He’s a courageous person and I give him that. And he has character. I don’t know how he’s going to continue with his life. I just don’t understand that.

OS:Well, one thing is clear. I think the only place in the world where he’s safe is here in Russia.

VP:I think so too.

OS:And there’s a great irony in this. In the old days, the Russian defectors would go to the United States. And this is a reversal.

VP:But Snowden is not a traitor.

OS:I know he’s not.

VP:That’s the first thing. And secondly, there’s nothing strange about that today, because however much they try to demonize Russia, Russia is a democratic country and also a sovereign country. There are risks to that, but also a great advantage to that as well. Because there are just a handful of countries who can really wield their sovereignty. And the other countries are burdened with so-called allied obligations. In reality, they have limited their own sovereignty of their own volition. That’s their decision.