Oliver Stone - The Putin Interviews

OS:He just disappeared?

VP:But then I got a report that Snowden’s on a plane bound for Moscow and that he was supposed to get on another plane and fly to Latin America, if I’m not mistaken. But it turned out that the countries he wanted to fly to were not quite happy about receiving him. Secondly, this is not our information, this information comes from other sources and that information was leaked to the press while he was on the plane. And it turned out that he could not continue his journey. And he was stuck in the transit area.

OS:But the US revoked his passport in midair which they have never done before. [40] Correction: Edward Snowden’s passport was annulled before he left Hong Kong for Russia. See, “AP Source: NSA leaker Snowden’s passport revoked,” Mathew V. Lee, US World & News Report (June 23, 2013). Retrieved at: https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2013/06/23/ap-source-nsa-leaker-snowdens-passport-revoked

VP:I didn’t remember that, but anyway, it was quite clear that he could not continue his journey. He’s a courageous man, probably even foolhardy. And he understood that he had no chance. He stayed in the transit area for 40 days. And then we provided him with temporary asylum. But of course the Americans asked us to extradite him. It’s quite understandable that we couldn’t do it.

OS:Why not?

VP:Because back then we were talking about concluding a treaty on cooperation on legal matters. That was our initiative. And that also would have stipulated mutual extradition of criminals, but the United States refused to cooperate with us. [41] Claim: “And that also would have stipulated it for mutual extradition of criminals, but the United States refused to cooperate with us.” Supporting: For a good explanation of why the US and Russia do not have an extradition treaty, see, “3 Extradition Cases That Help Explain US-Russia Relations,” Eyder Peralta, NPR (Aug. 7, 2013). Retrieved at: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/08/07/209846990/3-extradition-cases-that-help-explain-u-s-russia-relations . In addition to a Russian defector, the article explains that the US had refused to extradite a Chechen terrorist and Nazi War Criminal accused of running a death camp to Russia despite the latter’s requests. And they also refused to sign the agreement which we put forward. And according to our law, Snowden didn’t violate any law—he didn’t commit any crime. That’s why in the absence of this agreement on mutual extradition, given the fact that the US has never extradited any criminals to us who sought asylum in the United States, we had no choice. It was absolutely impossible for us to unilaterally extradite Snowden as the United States was asking us to do.

OS:Did Obama get on the phone with you?

VP:I should not like to discuss this in the film because it’s of a confidential nature.

OS:Let me ask you—I’m sure you must have, as an ex-KGB agent, you must’ve hated what Snowden did with every fiber of your being.

VP:No not at all. Snowden is not a traitor. He didn’t betray the interests of his country. Nor did he transfer any information to any other country which would have been pernicious to his own country or to his own people. The only thing Snowden did he did publicly. And it’s quite a different story.

OS:Right. Did you agree with what he did?

VP:No.

OS:Do you think the National Security Agency had gone too far in its eavesdropping? [42] Background Information: For more information on the huge amount of information the NSA collects on Americans, see, “FAQ: What you Need to Know about the NSA’s Surveillance Programs,” Jonathan Stray, Propublica (Aug. 5, 2013). Retrieved at: https://www.propublica.org/article/nsa-data-collection-faq

VP:Yes, certainly, I think so. Well, in that matter Snowden was right. But you asked me and I gave you a direct answer—I think he shouldn’t have done it. If he didn’t like anything at his work he should have simply resigned—that’s all. But he went further. I’m not acquainted with him personally, I only know of him from the press. If he thinks that by his actions he can prevent some threat to his country, I think he has the right to do it. That’s his right. But since you are asking me whether it’s right or wrong, I think it’s wrong.

OS:So you’re saying that he should not have whistleblown—which is an expression we use, “to whistleblow”—and he should have resigned in principle, somewhat like you did when you resigned from the KGB.

VP:Yes, I think so. I had not given it thought, but I think yes.

OS:You resigned because—I gather from yesterday, that it was in part because you did not want to serve in a government if the Communists controlled it.

VP:I resigned because I didn’t agree with the actions undertaken by the Communists in the attempted coup d’état against Gorbachev. And I didn’t want to continue to be an intelligence officer during that time.

OS:So you do agree the NSA went too far. And how do you feel about Russian intelligence activities in their surveillance.

VP:I think they’re working quite well. But it’s one thing to work well within the framework of the existing legislation. And it’s quite another story if you violate the law. Our intelligence services always conform to the law. That’s the first thing. And secondly, trying to spy on your allies—if you really consider them allies and not vassals—is just indecent. It’s not done. Because it undermines trust. And it means that in the end it damages your own national security.

OS:But the US surveillance no doubt has been heavily surveilling Russia?

VP:And they are still continuing that surveillance. No doubt. That’s what I always assume.

OS:Right. In a scene in the movie we show where Snowden shows his colleagues a heat map in Hawaii where it shows that the United States is collecting twice as many billion phone calls in the United States as it is in Russia. Russia is number two. The US is number one.

VP:Yes, I think that’s quite true. Regrettably, that’s an existing practice of how the intelligence services work today. Well, I am a grown up now and I understand how the world works. But spying on your own allies? That’s just unacceptable.

OS:Would you call the US an ally?

VP:Yes, sure. But it undermines trust among allies. And it destroys relations. But I’m just telling you that as an expert.

OS:Well you must be spying on the US because if the US is spying on you… I mean the Americans are going to say I’m sure you’re spying on us.

VP:Yes, sure. I don’t have anything against their spying on us. But let me tell you something quite interesting. After radical changes—political changes—took place in Russia, we thought that we were surrounded by allies and no one else. And we also thought the United States was our ally. And this former president of the KGB, of the special services of Russia, all of a sudden he transferred to our American partners, our American friends, the old system of eavesdropping devices at the US Embassy in Moscow. And he did it unilaterally. Just all of a sudden on a whim—as a token of trust symbolizing the transition to the new level.

OS:Was that Yeltsin?

VP:No, it was the head of the Russian intelligence service. It was under Yeltsin. And many named him a traitor. But I’m quite confident that he thought it had to symbolize a new character of our relations. So we were willing to stop the activities of the special services. But we never witnessed any step from the United States toward us.