Oliver Stone - The Putin Interviews

OS:Okay, thank you.

OS:So can we talk on the way? I don’t want you to crash. [laughs]

VP:Neither do I.

OS:No traffic—I love summer nights. I met you the first time when I was finishing the Snowden movie here in Moscow early in the summer of 2015. You were at a play, written in the 1960s, celebrating the Russian Folk tradition of the villages.

VP:I was invited to this play a long time ago by the head of the theater. One of the very famous and very popular Russian artists—Alexander Kalyagin. He played in many popular films. And that is his theater. Several years ago I attended the ceremony of the inauguration of this theater. He’s also the head of the Association of Theatrical Actors.

OS:I want to talk about Snowden a bit. In 2012, this is a long time ago now, and you’ve said you were good with Bush. Presumably you were good with Obama. You were dealing with him on Syria. You were dealing with him on Iran. There was no break. I don’t remember anything melodramatic about your relative positions with the United States. And then out of the blue you gave asylum to Edward Snowden in 2013.

VP:Not exactly like that. On the whole, the relationship dampened because the United States supported terrorist groups in the Caucasus. That has always been a problem in our bilateral relations. Not just with the President, but also with Congressmen—they were saying that they were supporting us but in practice we saw that their actions were completely contrary to what they were telling us. And then our relations were dampened even further because of Iraq.

There were other issues as well which were of concern to us. For instance, the unilateral withdrawal of the United States from the ABM treaty.

OS:Yes, but that was during the Bush era—now Obama’s come in.

VP:Yes, but still that issue persisted in our relations, and continued to be part of our relationship. Indeed after we granted asylum to Mr. Snowden it didn’t lead to improvement of our relationship; on the contrary, it aggravated it.

OS:I want to go back. We know that Bush supported the Georgian offensive in 2008. [38] Background Information: See, “The United States Shares the Blame for the Russia-Georgia Crisis,” Paul J. Saunders, US News & World Reports (Aug. 12, 2008). Retrieved at: https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2008/08/12/the-united-states-shares-the-blame-for-the-russia-georgia-crisis

VP:Not exactly—yes and no. We were surprised when we saw that the aggression by President Saakashvili was not just supported by Bush. They tried to paint the picture that Russia was the aggressor, when it was quite evident that it was Saakashvili who decided to launch the aggression. [39] Claim: “Not exactly—yes and no. We were surprised when we saw that the aggression by President Saakashvili was not just supported by Bush. They tried to paint the picture saying that Russia was the aggressor, when it was quite evident that it was Saakashvili who decided to launch the aggression.” Supporting: See, “The United States Shares the Blame for the Russia-Georgia Crisis,” Paul J. Saunders, US News & World Reports (Aug. 12, 2008). Retrieved at: https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2008/08/12/the-united-states-shares-the-blame-for-the-russia-georgia-crisis Moreover, he declared that publicly. And he made a TV address. There was just some surprise at how everything could be turned upside down. And they even tried to shift the blame on Russia next door. So even without Snowden there were many issues dampening our relations. So that when the Snowden factor came up it was an additional factor aggravating our bilateral relations.

OS:But can I say, after Russia took a strong position against Saakashvili—a very strong position and made it clear that there was a red line so to speak in Georgia—let’s say at that point there was no new dramatic conflict after the Georgian situation. It seemed to me that Obama accepted those conditions.

VP:To start with, I’d like to clarify. You see, we were very cautious with those unrecognized republics. I, personally, as president of Russia, never met the leaders of those two unrecognized republics. And in my personal contacts with President Saakashvili, I told him many times that we would facilitate the restoration of the territorial integrity of Georgia. But I was telling him that he had to accept the realities and acknowledge them and understand that the problem they were facing had just arisen until recently. The tensions between these groups had deep historical roots. After the first World War, after the so-called October Socialist Revolution—back then Georgia declared that it wanted to be an independent state. And Ossetia declared it wanted to be part of Russia. And back then in 1921, Georgian troops undertook two punitive actions against these factions. And all that is part of the historical memory. Something had to be done about that. We had to gain the trust of the people if Georgians wanted to preserve the territorial integrity of their country.

OS:But I repeat, I don’t remember there being anything major, loud, between Obama and you up until the Snowden story…

VP:That’s true, but if you’ll allow me, I’d like to say just a few more words about Georgia. Many times I told Saakashvili, if he wanted to restore the territorial integrity, he had to be very cautious with regards to the population of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. And I told him we’re willing to help you, and moreover I think George [Bush] can confirm that. I told him that he had to avoid potential aggression because if he were to launch hostilities against Abkhazia and South Ossetia, then the ethnic composition of the Caucasus being what it was—there were people living in adjacent regions in the Russian Federation who couldn’t have stayed outside that conflict. And we wouldn’t have been able to prevent them from engaging in that conflict. Just have a look at South Ossetia—a small republic. And in the north there is North Ossetia, as a constituent entity of the Russian Federation. And the same people live in both South Ossetia and North Ossetia. And it would have been impossible to prevent them from dashing to help their compatriots. And Russia would not have been able to stay outside that conflict. And our American partners were telling us, “Yes, we understand it.” It all led to the war which was started by Saakashvili. His actions dealt a great blow to the Georgian state. As to Snowden, indeed, at that time we seem to have had good relations with the United States. And the Snowden affair pushed our relations to deterioration.

OS:So here we are in June, 2013. You get a call, I suppose, and hear that Snowden is on the way via Moscow. I’m sure you get calls from the US, including Obama. How does the situation devolve and how do you handle it?

VP:Our first contact with Mr. Snowden was in China. We were told back then that this was a person who wanted to fight for human rights and against violations of human rights. And that we had to do that together. I’ll probably disappoint many people, probably even you, but I said we wanted nothing to do with that. We didn’t want to do that because he had quite difficult relationships with the United States as it was, and we didn’t want to aggravate those relations. And Mr. Snowden didn’t want to give us any information, he was just urging us to fight together and he has to be credited with that. But when it turned out that we were not willing to do that yet, not ready, he just disappeared.