Oliver Stone - The Putin Interviews

So on the whole, it’s a full-fledged, very tough blockade. Many people criticize Israel for the blockade of Palestine. I’m not going to elaborate on that, I’m not going to talk about that because it’s a different story entirely. But the same thing is happening here and everyone seems not to notice what is happening. There is not enough food there, not enough medicine. [55] Background Information: See, https://www.unicef.org/media/media_94886.html Nothing. And that is a serious issue. We assume that there is no other way to find a solution to this issue, other than adhering to the Minsk agreements—they have to be implemented.

We always hear appeals that we have to influence somehow the leadership of these unrecognized republics. Just recently, the leaders of these republics announced publicly that they were willing to go back to the Ukrainian state under certain conditions—if the Minsk agreements were observed. But these agreements were not implemented. And Donbass is not to blame for that. Let me reiterate, I believe that there is no other way to settle this crisis. And the Minsk agreement is the only way toward that end.

OS:Well, obviously there are problems with it. What if the people in Donbass came across the border to Russia? That would be their only hope if things got really bad.

VP:Do you mean that the best way to solve this issue is to push these people from their homeland?

OS:I’m not saying that, I’m saying if they have no water, no food, and they can’t go on living, the only way you can travel is on your feet. I mean we’re talking about major migration.

VP:Yes, many people have already resorted to these means—two and a half million Ukrainian citizens are in Russia. [56] Background Information: Putin is exactly correct when he says that 2.5 million Ukrainians have fled to Russia since the 2014 coup. See, “Obama’s Ukrainian Coup Triggered the Influx of 2.5 Million Ukrainian Refugees into Russia,” Eric Zuesse, Global Research (Mar. 12, 2017). Retrieved at: http://www.globalresearch.ca/obamas-ukrainian-coup-triggered-the-influx-of-2-5-million-ukrainian-refugees-into-russia/5579719 The overwhelming majority of them are men who are under conscription. They’re eligible for conscription. But in these territories there used to be four and a half million people. Right now estimates are around three million people are left there. [57] Background Information: The numbers here are not fully clear in terms of relationship among areas defined and: 1. Ukrainian citizens in Russia; 2. number of citizens who used to live in the territories, and; 3. number of people remaining. As cited earlier, two and a half million Ukrainian refugees did indeed go to Russia. And as noted by a OHCHR report, three million people live in the areas directly affected by the conflict.” See, “Report on the human rights situation in Ukraine 16 November 2015 to 15 February 2016,” Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (March 3, 2016). http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_13th_HRMMU_Report_3March2016.pdf

OS:So what if they come?

VP:Well, they are already doing that. They are coming. But once the situation quiets down, they go back to their homes.

OS:Yes, I understand. Of course the Kiev government would claim that the Russian army or the Russian government has intervened already in Ukraine with the annexation of Crimea. And the troops—they’re saying there are paratroopers or whatever you want to call them, contractors, soldiers and arms dealers helping them or helping the separatists.

VP:As to Crimea, I’d like to ask you, what is democracy? Democracy is a policy which is based on the will of the people. And how do we know the will of the people? In a modern world we use the voting procedure. People came to a referendum and there were no whips, no machine guns. And you cannot use these means to make a person come to a polling station to vote. People came, the turnout was more than 90 percent. And more than 90 percent voted in favor of re-unifying with Russia. [58] Claim: “People came, the turnout was more than 90 percent. And more than 90 percent voted in favor of re-unifying with Russia.” Supporting: Putin is correct that well over 90% of the Crimeans who went to the polls voted to leave Ukraine and join Russia. See, “Crimeans vote over 90 percent to quit Ukraine and join Russia,” Mike Collett-White and Ronald Popeski, Reuters (Mar. 16, 2014). Retrieved at: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA1Q1E820140316 The choice of the people has to be respected. And you cannot try to conform international law to your political interests against the principles of democracy.

OS:Nonetheless, the United States would say that you have violated international law—and that’s been a theme that has been repeated again and again by the EU. And you yourself acknowledged that the US had done that in Iraq, so it’s a question of course, at the end of the day, of power, isn’t it?

VP:Yes, that’s correct. As to armed forces of the United States coming to Iraq. And there were no elections there. No elections were held. As to Crimea, yes, we created conditions for people to be able to come to polling stations. But we were not engaged in any hostilities there, no one was shooting there, no one was killed.

OS:But literally the US would argue that elections were held eventually in Iraq.

VP:In the end, yes, but before that there was a war. And there was no war in Crimea. That’s the first thing. Secondly, there is another criticism addressed to Russia. They are saying that international law was violated. I have already talked about that but I’d like to emphasize that in the course of the Kosovo crisis, the International Court of Justice considered very cautiously this situation and the ICJ arrived at a conclusion saying that when the issue of self-determination of a nation is concerned, in accordance with Point Two of the United Nations charter, if my memory serves me correctly, the concerns of the central authorities of this or that country on this matter are not required. [59] Background Information: Putin here is referring to Article 1, Section 2 of the UN Charter which reads, “To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace.” Similarly, Article I, Section 1 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, a binding human rights instrument, provides: “All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.” As Putin indicates, this right to self-determination is not dependent on the will of the central government of any state. And thirdly, since you are preparing this documentary and you have time, I’d like to ask you to do something—have a look at what was said on that matter by the representatives of the United States, and the representatives of certain European countries—Germany, Great Britain—what they said in those matters when they were talking about them with the ICJ. All of them were saying that no consent from Belgrade was needed, and they were saying that everything was done in accordance with the United Nations Charter. I was always wondering if Kosovars were allowed to do it, why is that not allowed to Russians, Ukrainians, Tatars, and Crimeans? There is no difference whatsoever. [60] Claim: “I was always wondering if Kosovars were allowed to do it, why is that not allowed to Russians, Ukrainians, Tatars, and Crimeans? There is no difference whatsoever.” Supporting: Others have, as Putin, made the comparison of the Crimean referendum to join Russia, which the US opposed, to the Kosovar referendum to secede from Serbia, which the US pushed for the point of war. See, “From Kosovo to Crimea: Obama’s Strange Position on Referendums,” Brian Cloughley, Counterpunch (July 17, 2015). Retrieved at: http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/17/from-kosovo-to-crimea-obamas-strange-position-on-referendums/ Moreover, the decision on the independence of Kosovo was adopted by the decision of the parliament. Whereas, in Crimea first the parliament voted in favor of independence, and afterwards they held a referendum and during that referendum the people said that they were willing to go back to Russia. Every step has a reason behind it.