Oliver Stone - The Putin Interviews

OS:I’m surprised. I’ve always had great respect for Russian intelligence services and their knowledge of the West, but in this situation I was surprised by their lack of, it seems, information of what was going on in Ukraine. It’s been said that you yourself were surprised by this takeover, and that you were paying attention to the Sochi Olympics and you weren’t paying attention to what was going on in Ukraine. What happened to your intelligence service?

VP:No, that is not true. I had a fairly good picture of what was happening within Ukrainian society. And there is no doubt about that. This take-over could have happened at any time. There was a takeover when Kuchma was leaving office.

OS:And a pro-Western group came in, is that what you’re saying?

VP:Yes, and Yanukovych was the one to win the elections. But the street did not agree with that outcome of the election, and a third round of elections was proclaimed in violation of the Constitution. So it was also a quasi-coup d’état. Back then I thought they had made a grave mistake. Even though pro-Western politicians arrived in power, people very soon lost their confidence in those leaders as well. Because those politicians continue to do everything that had been done before them by the previous leaders of the country. And that’s why they were defeated in the subsequent elections. Unfortunately, President Yanukovych didn’t manage to change much in the country either. And the same thing happened to him. The very paradigm has to be changed of their relation to the people. They were talking about the need to get rid of the oligarchs. And now the oligarchs are in power. So nothing has changed really. They were talking about the need to get rid of corruption. What has changed? Nothing. The governor of the Odessa region is now former President [of Georgia] Saakashvili. [65] Background Information: Former Georgian President, Mikheil Sakashvili, who studied law in the United States, served as the Governor of Odessa from May of 2015 until his resignation in November of 2016. See, “Georgian Saakashvili quits as Ukraine Odessa governor,” BBC (Nov. 7, 2016). Retrieved at: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37895588

OS:Yeah, I know.

VP:That’s just a spit in the face, an insult to the people of Odessa and to the whole of the Ukrainian people. I do not want to give any assessments of Saakashvili, I think that would be the wrong thing to do. Whatever person he is, he was president of a nation [Georgia]. And it is up to the Georgian people to give him assessments. And besides, we are personally acquainted with him. He was not even granted a working visa in the United States. The investors he tried to get did not want to give him a permanent job. But quite strangely, he can act as the governor of the Odessa region [in Ukraine]. Are there no people with integrity, people from Ukraine who can do this job quite as well? It’s just ridiculous. And it’s an insult to the Ukrainian people.

OS:I have three specific questions about Ukraine, then perhaps we can take a walk? During the Maidan massacre, did you get any intelligence of what was going on? It’s the strangest massacre. Because of the number of casualties of policemen, and the civilians who were killed, and the policemen not firing back, they were retreating and called back by Yanukovych. And during that it seems like there was a sniper force that was definitely aiming at the policemen and civilians to create the chaos necessary for the takeover.

VP:To start with, that is absolutely correct. Yanukovych didn’t give an order to use weapons against civilians. [66] Claim: “Yanukovych didn’t give an order to use weapons against civilians” Supporting: Then Ukrainian President, Victor Yanukovych, later claimed that he regretted the bloodshed during the 2014 uprising, but that, as Putin claims, he never ordered weapons to be fired on demonstrators. See, “Ukraine crisis: Yanukovych regrets bloodshed in Kiev,” Gabriel Gatehouse, BBC (June 22, 2015). Retrieved at: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33224138 And incidentally, our western partners, including the United States, asked us to influence him so that he did not give any orders to those weapons. And President Yanukovych said that he couldn’t imagine any other way of dealing with this situation. He couldn’t sign an order on the use of weapons. And when both the police and the protesters were shot at, it’s correct what you’ve said—the goal was to sow chaos. And certainly President Yanukovych was not interested in the expansion of this chaos. He was interested in containing the situation. But I have to say that the so-called protesters were very aggressive. [67] Claim: “But I have to say that the so-called protestors were very aggressive.” Supporting: For detail on the violence perpetrated particularly by far-right anti-government protesters in Ukraine in 2014, see, “The Ukrainian Nationalism at the Heart of ‘Euromaidan’ Coverage focused on the call for European integration has largely glossed over the rise in nationalist rhetoric that has led to violence,” Alec Luhn, The Nation (Jan. 21, 2014). Retrieved at: https://www.thenation.com/article/ukrainian-nationalism-heart-euromaidan/

OS:Some of them, yes.

VP:Some of them centered in the office of the party of regents which was headed by President Yanukovych. And they burned it down. And technical workers came out and they said we are not members of the party. There was one electrician. And he was shot and they were thrown into the basement and then everything was burned. And that was even before the takeover. So Yanukovych was not interested in chaos, he did everything he could in order to quiet the situation, to restore calm.

OS:Well, who are these snipers?

VP:Well, who could have placed these snipers? Interested parties, parties who wanted to escalate the situation. I do not have any data on who precisely those snipers were, but elementary logic tells me.

OS:Have you heard any reports about the training that was going on in other cities, in Minsk and so forth, of battalions and the Right Sector—hardened people of the right? [68] Background Information See, “Profile: Ukraine’s ultra-nationalist Right Sector,” BBC (April 28, 2014). Retrieved at: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27173857 There were 100-man units that came to the city, I am told, in the days before the Maidan massacre.

VP:No, not in Minsk, but we have information available to us that armed groups were trained in the western parts of Ukraine itself, in Poland, and in a number of other places.

OS:I see. Have you heard of the Azov battalion? [69] Claim: “ OS: I see. Have you heard of the Azov battalion? VP: Yes, certainly. There are certain armed formations which are not accountable to anyone, nor are they accountable to the central authorities in Kiev. I believe that is one of the reasons why the current leadership right now cannot put an end to these hostilities. That is simply because they are frightened that these uncontrollable armed forces will return to the capital.” Supporting: There is no dispute about the nature of the Azov battalion as a violent, neo-Nazi military organization. Indeed, Congress was so alarmed by this battalion, and the US support for it, that it passed legislation banning the US from funding and training this battalion. Incredibly, this ban was later repealed. See, “US Lifts Ban on Funding ‘Neo-Nazi’ Ukrainian Militia,” Sam Sokol, Jerusalem Post (Jan. 18, 2016). Retrieved at: http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/US-lifts-ban-on-funding-neo-Nazi-Ukrainian-militia-441884