Oliver Stone - The Putin Interviews

VP:Well, certainly there is nothing good about that. Besides, Gorbachev, before taking any unilateral steps should have thought about how his partners would respond. Steps can be taken towards your partner, but you have to understand what’s going to follow. You asked me about Iraq. I think that was a mistake. Sending troops to Iraq, overthrowing Saddam Hussein.

OS:That was later. I’m talking about the beginning of this thing in 1991, when they invaded Kuwait.

VP:Back then the United States didn’t go further—they didn’t overthrow the government in Iraq. I know there are discussions on this matter and some say they should have gone further and overthrown Saddam Hussein. And others say that everything was done correctly, they had to stop at the right moment. And President Bush was quite right to do what he did, he was cautious. He responded to aggression and then stopped when the time was right.

OS:Okay, I understand your point of view. I don’t agree with it, but I understand. For the United States to send 500,000 troops anywhere in the world is to establish a major, major interest. And once you send that many US troops into an area, it changes forever the dynamic in that area. There is no way now that the United States would leave the Middle East.

VP:Yes, I think so, probably. The most depressing thing is the attempt to change regimes in that part of the world with the hope that the next day everything is going to sort itself out. And that American-style democracy will emerge. But that’s impossible and we’re witnessing what is happening in that region right now. Where did ISIS come from? There were never any terrorists there before. And now they have a beachhead there and they are in control of two thirds of Iraqi territory. And the same is happening in Syria. Libya, as a territorially integral state, has ceased to exist. [16] Claim: “Libya, as a territorially integral state has ceased to exist.” Supporting: It is well-recognized that Libya was destroyed as a country by the 2011 NATO intervention. See, “The US-NATO Invasion of Libya Destroyed the Country Beyond All Recognition,” Vijay Prishad, Alternet (March 22, 2017). Retrieved at: http://www.alternet.org/world/us-nato-invasion-libya-destroyed-country-beyond-all-recognition And remember how happy they were when Gaddafi was killed, but there were no reasons to be happy. [17] Background Information: Gaddafi, known as the “Brotherly Leader,” was a revolutionary who, at 27 years old led a coup to depose the monarch. For the next 42 years, he ruled Libya and implemented the strict fundamentals of Sunni Islam across his country. He was a staunch defender of his country and leadership, often leading his men into bloody battles, which were viewed by the rest of the world as erratic displays of showmanship. Ghaddafi survived many coup and assassination attempts until he was ultimately killed in 2011. See, http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/world/africa/qaddafi-killed-as-hometown-falls-to-libyan-rebels.html The standard of living there was quite high—near the average European level. Did they have to fight for democracy? Yes, they had to, but not using these means which they resorted to. You see the result—it’s a catastrophe.

OS:I understand. I think you’re getting a little bit ahead of me.

OS:I wanted to go first of all to the growth of this issue, which is the second Bush… W. He came into office and in 2001 he met you. And he said, in Slovenia I believe, “I looked into his eyes and got a sense of his soul.” [18] Background Information: See, “Bush saw Putin’s ‘Soul.’ Obama Wanted to appeal to his Brain,” Steven Mufson, Washington Post (Dec. 1, 2015). Retrieved at: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/bush-saw-putins-soul-obama-wants-to-appeal-to-his-brain/2015/12/01/264f0c7c-984b-11e5-8917-653b65c809eb_story.html .

VP:Yes, that’s exactly what he said. He’s a very decent person—a good person.

OS:What did you sense when he was saying that—what did you feel?

VP:I felt that here was a person we could come to agreement with—a person we can deal with—at least that’s what I hoped.

OS:And on 9/11, you were one of the first to call him and offer condolences? [19] Background Information: See, “911 a ‘Turning Point’ for Putin,” Jill Dougherty, Washington Post (Sep. 10, 2002). Retrieved at: http://www.edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/09/10/ar911.russia.putin/index.html

VP:Yes, we had planned military exercises of our new strategic forces for the next day. And I canceled those exercises and I wanted the president of the United States to know that. Certainly I understood that heads of state and governments in such a situation need moral support. And we wanted to demonstrate this support to President Bush.

OS:And when President Bush invaded Afghanistan, you cooperated with the invasion and set up bases in the Caucasus in Eurasia in order for the Americans to have a supply line for the war in Afghanistan?

VP:Well, it’s not exactly like that. We didn’t set up any military bases specifically for that purpose. Since the Soviet Union, we have had a division in Tajikistan which we later turned into a military base specifically to protect this direction, which is dangerous from the terrorists’ point of view—in Afghanistan. We supported the United States. [20] Background Information: It is also true, as Stone states, that Putin gave significant, concrete assistance to the US in its post-911 invasion of Afghanistan. Ibid. And we allowed them to use our territory to supply weapons and other cargo.

OS:And continued to do so until recently.

VP:Yes. We believe that this cooperation is in our national interest. This is a field where we can and should put our forces together. We provided our American partners with additional information including intelligence information, as far as it was possible.

OS:Russia has a long history of intelligence in Afghanistan. Of course you know a lot about it. How come you guys did not figure out where bin Laden was and what was really happening with bin Laden? Not just where he was, but how weak the Al Qaeda base was at this point in Afghanistan.

VP:Al Qaeda is not the result of our activities. It’s the result of the activities of our American friends. [21] Claim: “Al Qaeda is not the result of our activities. It’s the result of the activities of our American friends.” Supporting: See, “Frankenstein The CIA Created,” Jason Burke, Guardian (Jan. 17, 1999). Retrieved at: https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/jan/17/yemen.islam It all started during the Soviet war in Afghanistan. When the American intelligence officers provided support to different streaks of Islamic fundamentalism, helping them to fight the Soviet troops in Afghanistan. So it was the Americans who nurtured both Al Qaeda and bin Laden. But it all spun out of control and it always does. So they’re to blame.

OS:I understand. Although Bill Casey, Director of the CIA under Ronald Reagan, made it a special effort—this is documented—to excite the Muslims in the Caucasus in Central Asia against the Soviet Union. [22] Claim: “Although Bill Casey, Director of the CIA under Ronald Reagan, made it a special effort—this is documented—to excite the Muslims in the Caucasus in Central Asia against the Soviet Union.” Supporting: See, “Ghost Wars: How Reagan Armed the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan,” Steve Coll & Amy Goodman, Democracy Now! (June 10, 2004). Retrieved at: https://www.democracynow.org/2004/6/10/ghost_wars_how_reagan_armed_the His plan was bigger than just to defeat the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. He was hoping for regime change in the Soviet Union.