David Peace - Red or Dead

How much money did you get for matches like that?

Oh well, I used to cycle to Cronberry. It was about twelve or fourteen mile. And I think it might have been two and six. Five bob. Maybe seven and six. Yeah …

And I mean, of course, it wasn’t just you, was it? Every brother, all your brothers played professional football, didn’t they?

Bill nodded. And Bill said, They did. They did.

Who was the best? Yourself aside …

Er, it’s difficult to say. I would think that possibly my brother Jimmy. Being he was a centre-forward and scored goals. He would have been, in modern football, possibly the best player.

How would you rate yourself, looking back? And comparing yourself to people you’ve managed?

Well, my record is that I reached international standard and I played in cup finals. And so, er, I got more credit than them. But maybe they didn’t have the same chance as me.

How come you ended up in Preston, then? Because presumably a lot of Scottish sides would have liked to have signed you?

Well, I went to Carlisle on trial. And they signed me on. And then Preston saw me playing. After a season. They bought me for five hundred pounds. And out of that, I got forty pounds, I think. You couldn’t get from Carlisle to Preston on the train now for forty pound.

The interviewer laughed. The interviewer nodded.

And Bill said, So Preston had been watching me the whole season. And after playing maybe about only six games in Carlisle’s big team, they took me …

That’s always been the thing with you, hasn’t it? Driving onwards and onwards. And which, I think, is because of Glenbuck. And getting away from it. And getting on in life? And …

Bill said, Having seen the conditions that people had to live in. Having been in a pit, working in a pit. And it was either the pit or nothing. So that, I mean, that kind of environment really is good for people. And maybe that helped me. But being born, I think, with the determination is the thing. I mean, I think everything is inborn. I think that if anybody’s got ability, I think that it’s a natural thing for them …

Let’s talk a little about some of the Scottish players you played with, back in those days. Who were the great ones amongst them?

Well, it’s a difficult thing to say. But my first game for Scotland was at Wembley. And George Brown, who is now director of Rangers, he was playing. Captain of Scotland. Because I remember when the game was over. In the bath. George Brown said, Well, I think that will be my last game. He said, I’m thirty-three. And that was my first game. And it was possibly his last game for Scotland. George Brown was a class player. The great Tommy Walker was playing then, of course. He was brilliant. He was strong. He could batter them with both feet. He was fit. Jimmy Delaney played. I had these two in front of me. Jimmy Delaney was a powerful boy and all. And I remember playing over in Belfast. In the mud, one day. And at Tynecastle. In the mud, against Wales. And Walker and Delaney and I revelled in the mud. And I felt that the final game I played at Hampden, in thirty-nine, when England beat us. If Jimmy Delaney, who called off, had have been able to play. Then I think we would have beaten England.

Every kid in the country dreams of playing for Scotland. What’s it really like, in the dressing room at Hampden Park, when you’re pulling that dark blue jersey over your head? That must be the greatest thrill of them all, surely?

Oh well, it’s unbelievable. Because I mean, as a Scottish boy, I mean your whole dream is to be, if you’re football-minded, your whole dream is to play for Scotland. I mean, all Scottish people have got the fervour, you know? They want to fight. I mean, not fight like hooligans. I mean, they are all fighting people. They are warriors from the past. And small nations tend to be that way, you know? They think they are being sat on. And they fight back.

By the English?

Oh no, by everybody! Yeah, but then it was Scotland — England. Oh yes. Yes. I mean, as far as we were concerned, English people were poison, you know?

Yeah, said the interviewer. But tell me, are the Scots as good at football as they think they are?

Well, that’s a difficult thing to say. I mean, I don’t think that the best has been got out of the Scottish players that has been available to play at international level. And I think that they’ve got more natural ability than most of the other countries.

Yes, because you say in your book, don’t you? That you wish Scotland had called on you in some capacity or another? To help out? So, I mean, you obviously think that you could have done something that hadn’t been done, do it better? What …

Bill looked at the interviewer. And Bill said, Well, my record is one of success, as a manager. And I think that I have got the ways and means of motivating people. And if I had all the pick of the Scottish players at my disposal, then I think that I would have been successful. And that somebody was going to get an awful belting off us.

So who would you have picked, asked the interviewer. Say, for example, in the last two or three years? Do you think Scotland have left players out who should have been in?

Oh, I don’t know about that. I don’t know about that. In the midfield, at the moment, they’ve got tremendous strength. And the three boys that are playing — Rioch, that Archie Gemmill, Masson — and, of course, Lou Macari, who is playing brilliantly. And so they’ve got the greatest midfield strength of all, at the moment …

Macari can’t even get in the side, laughed the interviewer. But you tried to sign him, didn’t you?

Oh well, aye. Macari’s not in the team, so the other boys must be brilliant to keep him out. I think, mind you, he may have been in. He was unfortunate. I think whoever got in now, would stay in. And if Macari had been in, he would have stayed in. But I think that Macari will play for Scotland soon.

I’ve always thought that one of the big reasons for Bill Shankly’s success was he was a master psychologist?

Yes, well, conning is not really the word. I mean, I think that psychology is a form of exaggeration. And exaggeration is a form of psychology. And I was brought up in a village where all the men used to stand at the corner and tell terrible tales, you know? Long tales. Exaggerated tales. Now that’s a form of psychology. Exaggeration.

How do you mean? What sort of tales?

Bill smiled. And Bill said, Tales about, er, I mean, an old man, he used to work in the pit. He says he pushed a hatch three hundred yards before he knew he was off the rails, you know? Things like that. We all used to wear little cloth caps. And we used to turn our caps upside down, you see? And this was a sign we didn’t believe him. And then he used to go and say, Christ! I’ll murder all of you! So I had psychology. I mean, I had a boy here. And he started off playing well. Then he tapered off. So I said, I need to work on him. Because he’s got ability. So I used to give him the impression, when we were going to the away game, You’re not doing too well, son, you know? That he wouldn’t be playing. So he’d be sitting in the train or the bus thinking, Well, I’m not playing. And when we got to the ground, I’d say, Do you want to play? And he’d say, Good God, aye. So he made his debut again. You see? That boosted him up.

I’ve been told a story about you and the table football …

Yeah. Yeah …

And getting that all organised …

Yeah …

Tell us that story.

You mean, the tactical talks?

Yes.

Oh well. I mean, we used to go and watch teams, and we only wanted to know what their basic formation was. And we had tactical talks. And there was anybody who would cause trouble, we would pay attention to them. But if we were playing against big teams, I used to take out big players, you know? The opposition. And put them in my pocket. And by the time half the big players were off, I said, We’ve cut them out already. We’ve beaten them. So I’d put the little Bobby Charlton and George Best in my pocket when I was talking. They weren’t playing. And Denis Law. They didn’t make any difference.