David Peace - Red or Dead

Well, it is. And if you get a bit of a stitch. Or have the wrong thing to eat or drink beforehand …

You don’t want to give in, said Bill Shankly. Do you?

No, no. You don’t …

You want to go on until you die, said Bill Shankly.

Well, actually, that’s good for politics. I remember when I was up and coming, really, one of the greatest journalists, now dead, said, Watch this man. He’s a long-distance runner …

Yes, said Bill Shankly. Yes!

A long-distance runner who gets there in the end …

Yes, said Bill Shankly again. That’s what I said at the beginning of the football season …

And keeps on running.

When they said, Who is going to win the League? I said, Listen. This is a marathon. This isn’t a short sprint.

Harold Wilson said, It’s very tight at the moment between the top ones. I heard you, actually, last season. Oh, I should think ten or a dozen matches before the end, saying Derby County were going to win. I heard you on the radio say that.

Well, I had seen all the teams then, Mr Wilson.

You were quite positive about it. And it was a near thing. But you were right. You were right.

Well, I think that they only used the bits they wanted to use.

Harold Wilson asked, Did they?

In actual fact, my first bet was Liverpool. And Derby County was my saving bet. And they edited it so that I was Derby County.

Harold Wilson smiled. And Harold Wilson said, Oh, I gave you credit for it then, you see.

Well, I did back Derby County. I had seen Derby at Liverpool. I’d seen all the teams. And I felt that Derby had enough class.

Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, Your Liverpool team was one of the greatest I’ve ever seen.

Oh yes …

It still is, of course.

Oh yes, said Bill Shankly again. Yes, yes. They’ve got character. And they are never beaten. They last the game. The game that we did play, it was geared to bring everybody into the game. And simplify it. Consequently, you didn’t have more to do than me, if you were on the same team …

Harold Wilson nodded again. And Harold Wilson said, Yes, I know. Well, my theory about this is the same with politics. I often use the analogy. In fact, people say I get boring …

No, said Bill Shankly. No.

… the way I use analogies in the House of Commons. But it helps you understand it. So I always say, No team is going to win the Cup or the League unless it’s got good reserves.

Yes, said Bill Shankly. Yes.

And I’ve paid as much attention to building up my reserves. As I say, after being out of office for thirteen years, I reckon that if my first team got under a bus, my second team could take over. And my third team shows in some ways more promise than any of them.

Yes, said Bill Shankly. This is true. This is true.

And you’ve got to give them responsibility young.

Exactly, said Bill Shankly. And if I had a well-known player, unable to play through injury, which would be a terrible blow. Some teams, if they lose a key player, that’s them gone, you know? And the pessimistic will let that get them down. But when I had a key player injured, I used to say to the boy apprentice, Now listen, son. You’re a better player than him. You see? And have a little bit of psychology.

Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, But I don’t have the problem of temporary substitution. I have the problem of taking people off the substitutes’ bench, like you do. I mean, for a very long time, you had five or six world-class forwards …

Oh, we did, said Bill Shankly.

And your problem was who to leave out.

We did.

Harold Wilson said, And they were always disappointed, whichever one was left out.

But our football was a form of socialism, said Bill Shankly.

Well, I think you know, you have the great advantage here — and it’s true of certain other parts of the country — of tremendous schools’ football. I mean, how often have my own constituents’ boys gone on to the national championships, schoolboy championships, different parts of the constituency, different parts of Merseyside — and I’ve seen those kids playing and you’ll find that kids of about ten or twelve are getting watched by the scouts.

Well, I’ve seen a few eleven-year-olds and twelve-year-olds recently. And there’s a few of them can play, I can tell you.

Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, Yes, well they’re born with it, they’ve got the gift, as long as they work at it.

They’ve got it, said Bill Shankly. And if they’ve got the ability, then a breakthrough is going to come out. And I’ve got my eyes on them, you know? So this is the thing. Er, back to the running. The grit that you showed in your cross-country. This is your character. And this is why you rose to be prime minister.

Harold Wilson nodded again. And Harold Wilson said, Well, you talk about Robbie Burns. But one of my favourite songs is from Harry Lauder. Keep Right on to the End of the Road.

Oh yes, said Bill Shankly. Yes.

If you’ve got a problem to solve, you’ve got to keep at it. You’ve just got to keep at it. And with us — again I’ll take your football analogy — in politics timing is everything. People will nag you. Why haven’t you done it? Why don’t you get on with it?

Yes, said Bill Shankly again. Yes.

I was nagged all the summer about the anti-inflation policy. I knew what I wanted. And I was confident I’d get it. But it had to be the right time. So I had to get kicked in the teeth and everything else. Because I seemed to be complacent and lazy. But there’s a time. And you know when that time is, you know when’s the time to hit that ball. And it’s the same thing …

And only you know that, said Bill Shankly. Only you.

Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, And only you know that. If you’re a professional. And if you’re not, you’d better make way for somebody else.

And only the manager knows of a football club, said Bill Shankly. What he’s got to do. And when to do it. This is the thing.

Exactly. And how he’s going to shape them …

And the man who’s willing, said Bill Shankly, he takes the stick if it goes wrong.

And how you’ve got to bring this man on, and perhaps disappoint another, sometimes breaks his heart.

And he’s not going to be told by somebody else when to bring him on, said Bill Shankly. He brings him in. The same as you bring your men in at the right time. And you make your statements at the right time. As you say, it’s all timing.

And football managers. Politicians. Get it wrong sometimes …

Oh yes, said Bill Shankly. It’s the simplest thing in the world.

And don’t we hear about it?

Well, said Bill Shankly. It’s a loud bang when a football manager does something wrong. But when you make a larger boob, with you then it’s a bigger bang, of course.

Mind you, we have the right to answer back. In Parliament.

Sure, said Bill Shankly. Sure, sure.

Harold Wilson sat up in his seat. And Harold Wilson said, Our parliament, I think, is the greatest thing in the world. The Americans have got nothing like it. Nothing like it. And I don’t know a lot about the Continentals. But it is democracy. The minister, whatever he’s done, he’s got to answer for it, to a pretty hungry crowd of experts. People who are out to either get him down or support him. And you can’t touch it, you can’t dodge the responsibility …

No, no.

If you’ve made a mistake, say so. And I’ve always had Question Time. And I was once told Macmillan, who was one of the greatest prime ministers — I didn’t agree with him on a lot of things, nor he with me, but I respected him — and I was told that he used to be almost physically sick before questions, twice a week. I know how he felt. And when a prime minister isn’t worried about questions, then democracy is in danger. But I’ve suddenly changed my psychology. I used to think of it like cricket, you know? If you are supposed to be a top-class batsman, they mustn’t take your wicket. And it makes you a bit defensive, you know?