U. Krishnamurti - The Collected Works

This man is not a stone; he is affected by everything that is happening there. Nor does he bother to create an armor. The religious man has built an armor around himself. Here the cumulative process has come to an end: the only action is physical action — only on that level. The senses are running like wild horses — there is nobody who is controlling them — they run here, there and everywhere, as the situation demands. This action is the movement of life, the real movement of life, and it has no direction. If you accept the helplessness, the problem is solved — that is why I say there is no freedom of action for you. It's not a fatalistic philosophy I am talking about; but preventing the past from interfering with, and coloring, the present.

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All this talk of urdhvaratus (sublimation of sex energy) is bunkum. I make emphatic statements because it is something I have experimented with before, and I know what it is.

By conserving sex energy, you are not going to improve yourself in any way. It is too silly and too absurd. Why have they laid so much stress on that? Abstinence, continence, celibacy, is not going to help to put you in this state, (Laughs) in this situation. You can have sex today, and this kind of thing can happen to you tomorrow — and this can happen even through sex. If there is a moment there where there is nobody who is experiencing anything, that is the moment when this kind of a thing can happen. It doesn't have to be the discourse of a religious man; the falling of a leaf, the mooing of a cow, the neighing of a horse, or anything that is happening can do the trick — because if you don't translate anything, that will take care of it.

There is no such thing as sublimation, nothing going up there; it is only going out — but these holy men won't accept it. If they were honest enough, they would know what they are saying. So, that's what it is.

Sex is unfortunately separated from other activities. Why? — I have always wondered. It is one; it can't be separated. Why have they put it on a different level? It is that that has created the problem, not only here, but in Western countries as well. Christianity also has separated them, maybe for reasons of security or property, but now we have ways of getting rid of these things — at that time it was not so easy.

Q: There is a beautiful term, "neurotic hiatus."

UG:Religion is responsible for that — it has created that for us. The questioning of our actions is really the moral problem. We must have new moral codes of conduct — that is necessary, otherwise we can't function. That is the trouble now. They, the West at any rate, are groping now for new codes. The old codes are all out of date, anachronistic, finished. Who cares about sex? Sex is so easy now, and everybody talks about it. One of the most epoch-making discoveries of modern times is the birth-control pill — it has changed the whole thing.

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May I ask you a question? What, according to you, is a normal man? Is there one? You have, of course, divided people, and you have certain psychological or philosophical norms.... Or a healthy man? What is health? I sometimes wonder who is a normal man? Not that I have a question.

Q: What is 'normal' is set by each society. The ordinary man wants to be with others all the time, and not alone, therefore he makes certain accommodations — that's the only definition I have.

UG:Even such a man — the 'extraordinary' man, as opposed to your 'ordinary' man — has to live here in this society; he cannot run away and live in a cave and meditate. He is not in conflict with this society at all; he accepts the reality of the world, although it is so unreal, and functions in the world, accepting the reality accepted by everybody. It is very important: I can't sit in a cave and meditate on Brahman and say to myself "I am Brahman;" this is the only reality for such a man, and there is no other reality. The 'ultimate reality' is bosh and nonsense, it doesn't exist, it's a myth; this is the only reality. What other reality is there? As long as you are feeling the feelings of society, you are part of that society. Because you have no such thing as your own thoughts, your own experiences, or your own feelings, you can't run away from this society. You are not separate from the society; you are the society. There is no social or religious content to what I am saying.

Q: Can I put this question back to you? What according to you is a normal man?

UG:To me there is no such thing as a normal man. When I look at the so-called insane people, I wonder whether they are insane, or those who are treating them. I was telling a joke the other day. Some chappie in a loony bin said "I am Jesus Christ." His friend, another inmate, said "I know you are not." "How the hell do you know I am not?" said the first chappie. The other chappie said "I am the Eternal Father. I have created you. I should know you." (Laughter) It's like that here also, when I see all those people sitting there saying "Aham Brahmasmi" (I am Brahman). What is this nonsense?! Not that I am against anything.

Q: You wouldn't ask that question of yourself — "Am I normal?"

UG:No, I don't ask. Sometimes the only thing I read is Time Magazine — I read all this stuff, you see. Why do I read it? I'm living in this world, and I would like to know what is happening in this world. Why not? All other books tell me how to improve myself, how to change myself, how to be there, how to be that. I don't want to be anything other than what I am, so I have no interest in any of those books. Some people ask why I read crime fiction. Because there is a lot of action there. If I go to see a movie, I see cowboy films. You see, there is a lot of movement there. If I watch television, I watch only the commercials.

Q: Are you affected by what you see?

UG:That is also affecting you in a way — you are part of this world — you are affected by that. You are not involved, but you are affected. There is a difference between getting involved and allowing yourself to be affected. All the windows are open: it doesn't matter, this or that, anything can come.

We have very strange ideas in the religious field — torture this body, sleep on nails, control, deny things — all kinds of funny things. What for? Why deny certain things? I don't know. What is the difference between a man going to a bar for a glass of beer, and a man going to a temple and repeating the name of Rama? I don't see any basic difference. Probably it is antisocial here; in the West they don't think it is antisocial; here we think it is. These are all escapes. I am not against escapes, but whether you escape through this avenue or that avenue, an escape is an escape. You are escaping from yourself.

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What you do or do not do does not matter at all. Your practice of holiness, your practice of virtue — that is socially valuable for the society, but that has nothing to do with this.

Q: Of course we are living in society; but as far as this goes — enlightenment, realization or whatever you call it....

UG:Whatever name you use — it is your word.

Q: ....it has nothing to do with it?

UG:It has absolutely nothing to do with it. Why, I sometimes go to the limit of saying that it is possible for a rapist, for a murderer, for a thief,

for a convict, for a con-man — this kind of thing can happen! To emphasize; it's not that I....

Q: But has it happened?