Oliver Stone - The Putin Interviews

OS:Right, I understand. Was there US interference in the 2012 election in Russia?

VP:In 2000 and in 2012, there has always been some interference. But in 2012 this interference was particularly aggressive. [168] Claim: “But in 2012 this interference was particularly aggressive.” Dueling Accusations: While some US officials condemned the results of the 2012 elections in Russia, the Kremlin contended that the US was financing opposition groups, as well as coordinating with demonstrators in Moscow. See, “Despite Kremlin’s Signals, US Ties Remain Strained After Russian Election,” David M. Herszenhorn, Steven Lee Myers, the New York Times (March 6, 2012). Retrieved at: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/07/world/europe/ties-with-us-remain-strained-after-russian-election.html

OS:Can you describe some of that?

VP:I’m not going to go into detail, but just to site an example, our American partners know that and we said that. I told that to Obama and John Kerry. We could hardly imagine diplomatic workers who were in a country, well in that particular case in Russia, would be so aggressive in interfering in the electoral campaign that was going on in Russia. They rallied the opposition forces. They funded rallies and the opposition. Diplomats have to do different things. The diplomatic service is supposed to foster good relations between countries. NGOs can pursue different avenues regardless of their nationality or origin. But very often NGOs are funded through a number of structures set up either by the State Department or controlled indirectly.

OS:Like the Ukraine situation?

VP:Not just in Ukraine, all across the post-Soviet space in Eastern Europe and in many other countries in Africa in Latin America as well, we see the same thing.

OS:Yes.

OS:Was there cyber interference in the 2012 election?

VP:To be honest, I don’t pay particular attention to that matter. We’ve got an agenda of our own which we have to address. I think many partners of ours live in a world of their own, and very often they’re out of touch with what is happening in other countries in reality, including Russia.

OS:Well, let’s clarify, because cyber warfare is here with us. We started down that road a few years ago. The United States will not admit it, but it’s known that in 2010 we succeeded in planting the Stuxnet virus in Iran. [169] Background Information: Although US Deputy Defense Secretary, William Lynn, refused to say whether the US was involved in the development of the virus, Stuxnet, that targeted Iran’s Natanz nuclear plant, it is believed that a US-Israeli operation was behind the attack. See, “US was ‘key player in cyber-attacks on Iran’s nuclear programme,’” Peter Beaumont, Nick Hopkins, The Guardian (June 1, 2012). Retrieved at: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/01/obama-sped-up-cyberattack-iran

VP:We know that, we know how the NSA is working. We know that after Snowden’s confessions. And I’d like to say that what we know from Mr. Snowden, we know from the media as well. Because what he thinks necessary, he passes to the media. He uses the Internet to deliver that information. So we are witnessing that all across the world. We know about surveillance of private lives and the private lives of political leaders, which I believe is a very bad practice.

OS:But cyber warfare is not surveillance. But it’s with us, as pervasively as surveillance. In my film Snowden [170] Background Information: Oliver Stone’s 2016 film, Snowden, follows Edward Snowden in the lead-up and aftermath of his decision to leak classified information to the press. See, “In ‘Snowden,” the national security whistleblower gets the Oliver Stone treatment,” Ann Hornaday, the Washington Post (September 15, 2016). Retrieved at: https://www.washingtonpost.com/goingoutguide/movies/in-snowden-the-national-security-whistleblower-gets-the-oliver-stone-treatment/2016/09/15/8f2ebde4-78e9-11e6-ac8e-cf8e0dd91dc7_story.html he told me this story, he was in Japan stationed in 2007/2008 and the NSA asked the Japanese to spy on their population. The Japanese said “no” and we spied anyway.

Not only that but we went on once we knew their communication systems to plant malware in their civilian infrastructure in the event that Japan would no longer be an ally.

Snowden also described similar situations in Brazil, Mexico, and many countries in Europe. It’s quite surprising that we would do this to our allies.

VP:Well, you see, Americans have much to attend to—there are many things they’ve got to look after. And they’ve got to work everywhere. Six hundred billion US dollars spent by the Pentagon is not all the money that is spent on security and defense.

OS:No, I mean come on, this is a serious… You’re acting innocent, but Russia must be aware of the power of cyber warfare and what the Americans can do. If I’m saying that they’re planting malware in Japanese infrastructure to destroy power stations, railroads, close the country down, black it out, the Russians are miles ahead of me, they must realize the dangers here and they must have been working on them for some time to prevent such a situation from happening to Russia. Because they are one of the obvious enemies of the United States.

VP:Well, you will probably not believe me, but I’m going to say something strange. Since the early 1990s, we have assumed that the Cold War is over. Russia has become a democratic state. Of its own accord, Russia has decided to help build the statehood of former Soviet republics. Russia has been the one that initiated this process. We proposed that sovereignty should be granted to former Soviet republics. We thought there was no need to take any additional protective measures because we viewed ourselves as an integral part of the world community. Our companies, our state institutions and administrative departments, they were buying everything—hardware and software. And we’ve got much equipment from the US, from Europe, and we use that equipment, it’s used by the intelligence services and by the defense ministry. But recently we certainly have become aware of the threat that all of that poses. Only during recent years, have we started to think about how we can ensure technological independence, as well as security. Certainly we give it much thought and we take appropriate measures.

OS:Well, if Snowden is saying the US is doing this to an ally in 2007 in Japan, 2008—if they’re planting malware in allies, do you understand what I’m saying? What are they doing in places like China, Russia, Iran, and so forth? I mean, you understand my point is that Russia had to be aware as early as 2007 that the US was planting malware. Were there attacks on Russia as early as 2007, ’06, ’05?

VP:You know, we didn’t pay attention to it back then. Our nuclear plants, the plants that produce nuclear weapons, they had American observers stationed at those factories and plants.

OS:As late as what year?

VP:I think it was as late as 2006. But I don’t remember exactly. So the trust and openness of Russia, they were unprecedented.

OS:Yes. And then what happens?

VP:Unfortunately, they didn’t recognize that. They didn’t want to take note of that and appreciate it.

OS:When did Russia build up its cyber capabilities?

VP:This process has been a long one. We had to catch up. We’ve got a very good foundation. We have a very high education level and very good school of mathematics. Many Russian scientists work in the United States achieving illustrious results. Some of our companies, three or four years ago, they started from scratch. And right now they get seven billion dollars or so yearly. They’ve become competitive in the software market. And they’re also quite active in pursuing hardware. We see supercomputers being built. So this field is undergoing rapid development, not just for the sake of defense and security. This is also for the sake of science and economy.