David Peace - Red or Dead

Not qualifying was a killer, said Bill Shankly. Scotland qualified. And they were a little unlucky.

Well, as I say, I saw them at Frankfurt.

Don Revie is in now, said Bill Shankly. And he’s, he’s, he’s … Now he’s searching out, er … What he can do for the best …

He’s experimenting. Yes. Experimenting.

Well, said Bill Shankly, we were talking about getting the best players for the plan of campaign. And utilise them. And possibly it’ll take him longer than people think.

Harold Wilson sat forward in his seat. And Harold Wilson asked, What were you naturally?

Right foot, said Bill Shankly. Oh yes. Right-footed.

But you could do both?

Er, I was a reasonable kicker of a ball with my left foot. But I was naturally right-footed.

What was your favourite position?

I played with four on my back, which then was called right-half. But I was a midfield player. Or I’d be a sweeper up. One of the two. We were talking about judgement, of course, which you and I had to have. What do you regard as your biggest mistake? If you did have a big mistake, that is?

Harold Wilson said, Oh, that’s my secret!

Bill Shankly laughed.

I have had a number, including some that the commentators in the opposition have not got onto. I think one or two that I would say, particularly here: I think on Rhodesia, for example, in the 1960s, I thought they really were willing to negotiate and get a solution, and I went on. We had the meetings on HMS Fearless , HMS Tiger . I went there and I think I put a lot of energy into it that was wasted. Now the situation has changed and I hope it is going to be all right. But, I think, other things: I underrated, for example, the economic situation in the 1960s. I didn’t realise how virulent could be an attack on sterling. Sometimes, you know, from people just talking and gossiping without really knowing the facts. I was trying to build up the industrial strength and didn’t allow enough, I think, for the fact that we could be knocked sideways by a run on sterling. We’ve learnt a lot from those days. But I think those are the kind of mistakes I would mention …

Well, I wouldn’t call that a mistake, Mr Wilson.

And I think, like you, I sometimes put the odd person in the team that afterwards I thought had been a mistake …

Well, said Bill Shankly again, I wouldn’t call them mistakes …

Not many …

I would call them happenings, said Bill Shankly.

Harold Wilson said, You say, in football, you don’t have mistakes, you have happenings?

Happenings, said Bill Shankly. And I think it’s the same in your case. Happenings.

Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, Well, I like the happenings to lead to a win, not a loss.

Right, said Bill Shankly. What made you become a socialist?

Really, very similar to the reason I think anyone you were brought up with would say. I was brought up in an area, the textile valleys of the West Riding, where unemployment, the Depression, was so great and where … well, my own father was out of work for a year or two. But we didn’t have it hard, we didn’t have it bad. But a lot of the kids — kids in my patrol in the Scouts, kids in my football team at school — their parents were out of work. Lads were in what we now call the eleven-plus and couldn’t go on to the secondary school because of that. I think that’s what really started it. But a lot of it was, as I say, also the influence of mostly the religious teachers.

Well, said Bill Shankly, I think to that question I would have said, I think you are what you are. You are born what you are. And I think that a man is a socialist at heart.

Harold Wilson nodded again. And Harold Wilson said, I think you are to a large extent born. My father voted Labour in 1906, though he also worked for Churchill, Winston Churchill, in the 1908 election, as his sub-agent. I was brought up on that legend. But perhaps in my mind the Tories never had a chance. Because I was a little indoctrinated the other way by my family.

Well, said Bill Shankly again, I think that you were a naturalborn. And I think if I am born, the politics that is in me, is me.

That’s right. Well, it is part of your whole make-up.

It is part of my make-up, said Bill Shankly. The same as my religion is part of my make-up …

Quite right. Absolutely right.

And football is my religion, said Bill Shankly.

Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, And I do not say that if a person is religious, he’s got to be a socialist. All I say is, if he is a religious person, in my view, he should not feel that his politics and his religion are contradictory. Let him be, as so many are, a good Conservative, a good Liberal, a good Labour man. But he must feel that what he is doing in politics represents his conception of what religion tells him.

Oh yes, said Bill Shankly. Oh yes. Without doubt. Yes. Now who is the best player you ever did see?

It’s difficult. Difficult. But Alec Jackson. Alec Jackson. Another Scotsman. Alec Jackson of Huddersfield.

The side that won the League …

And in those three years, they were in the Cup Final twice. And in the semi-final, with two replays in the middle year.

And the second team, said Bill Shankly, they won the Central League three successive seasons?

They did. And at the same time. That’s right.

Now you mention Alec Jackson, said Bill Shankly, I’ll tell you a story. Roy Goodall said to me that Alec Jackson used to go into the visiting dressing room, before the game at Huddersfield, and say to the left-back, I bet you a new hat I score three goals. And he used to go out and score three goals. This is the kind of cockiness the man had. He was so brilliant.

Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, He was. And it was tragedy when he was killed. I’m not saying there is nobody as good today. That sounds like a very old fogey. But I am saying, if I were to start picking out one or two today, I’d be unfair to a lot of others. I think there are people as good as he was today. And many would say better. We haven’t seen them competing with one another.

Well, said Bill Shankly, I was lucky enough, and fortunate enough, to play in a team where a fellow called Tom Finney played. And of all the players I have seen, I would pick Tommy Finney.

You’d pick Tommy Finney?

Tommy had everything.

Well, what about that story, though, that when he replaced Matthews on the wing for a match, the centre-forward, Stan Mortensen, said, It’s not the same? He said that Matthews always had the lace placed correctly.

Yes, said Bill Shankly. Correct. Great players both.

A wonderful combination.

Great, great.

Well, we’ve got some great players today. I’ve named one or two. And there are a lot more. And you’ve brought a lot of them on yourself, haven’t you?

Well, said Bill Shankly, we have a team here. They complement each other. They play as a team.

You signed two players from Scunthorpe?

Clemence for eighteen thousand pounds and Keegan for thirtyfive thousand pounds. Yes.

At a time when the ruling rate was a couple of hundred thousand for a first-class player?

Yes, said Bill Shankly. Clemence has been a brilliant player.

I’ve seen him play some good games.

Yes, said Bill Shankly again. Er, now, Mr Wilson, you and I are sitting here. Both from socialist backgrounds. That’s not to say that we have no time for anybody else. Because, I mean, the whole world is with us. I’ve got friends in all walks of life. And I don’t let politics or religion bother me. I’ll tell you that now. That’s a fact. But you were honoured with the OBE. And so was I. So it’s one each.

Yes. We got one each.

Who’s going to get the next goal?