Oliver Stone - The Putin Interviews

But until these political decisions have been taken and implemented, until people are safe in those unrecognized republics, the closing of the border will only mean one thing—that they are going to be encircled and later eliminated. We talked about that during the long night when we hammered out the Minsk agreements. We talked about that in great detail. And our Ukrainian counterparts first agreed to that, but right now they seem as if they do not understand what is going on. Right now we support a proposal set forth by President Poroshenko to reinforce the observer contingent on the line of contact. He is the one who initiated this proposal and I have supported it. Moreover, he suggested that the OSC observers should be equipped with arms and we support that as well. The problem is further aggravated by the fact that the economic and internal political situation in Ukraine has deteriorated dramatically. And right now, some of our partners—I’m not going to name them—are saying that the Ukrainian president is not capable of making these political decisions due to the difficult internal political situation in Ukraine. And a year ago, I suggested that President Poroshenko should hold early elections and thereby reinforce his position, so that, even though we had differences, he would be able to push through all the required political decisions. But back then, our American friends, our European friends told us that the prime minister—back then it was Mr. Yatsenyuk and President Poroshenko had to pull their efforts together, they had to work together and we know how it ended [141] Claim: “ But back then, our American friends, our European friends told us that the prime minister—back then it was Mr. Yatsenyuk and President Poroshenko had to pull their efforts together, they had to work together and we know how it ended” Supporting: Putin refers here to the legacy of the Poroshenko-Yatsenyuk government which ended with Prime Minister Yatsenyuk’s resignation. See, “The Toxic Coddling of Petro Poroshenko,” Lev Golinkin, Foreign Policy (April 13, 2016). Retrieved at: http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/04/13/the-toxic-coddling-of-kiev-ukraine-poroshenko-yatsenuk/ —by a split up in the government and a very difficult political situation. And right now when I remind our partners of that, they simply shrug their shoulders. The question is, how does Russia fit into all this. And the United States and Europe keep coming up with new accusations, trying to accuse Russia of something new because they cannot publicly admit that they’ve made mistakes. That’s why they choose to blame Russia. We have quite a famous poet who wrote fables—his name was Krylov—and one of these fables features a dialogue between a wolf and a lamb. In this dialogue with the wolf, the lamb is trying to justify himself, saying that he is not to blame for anything. And once the wolf has run out of arguments, he decides to put an end to this discussion. And he says, “Dear lamb, you are only to blame because I am hungry.” [laughter]

OS:If this happens—you used the word “eliminated” I believe—what’s the worst-case? I mean, how many Russian-Ukrainians would be at risk?

VP:It’s not about the leadership of those unrecognized republics. You see, it’s that everyone who lives in those unrecognized republics—there are about three million citizens there—they participated in the election campaign, they took to the polls, and that’s why—in the absence of a law on amnesty—they can all be persecuted as separatists.

OS:Three million people at the great risk. So it could turn into another situation like in Serbia, Bosnia?

VP:Certainly, that’s what it looks like. We remember the tragedy of what took place in Odessa. More than 40 people—innocent, unarmed—were encircled and burned to death. And those who tried to get away were beaten to death with iron rods. And who was responsible? People adhering to extreme, radical views and such people can enter the territory of these republics and do the same thing there. When I talk about this issue with some of my Western partners, when I’m telling them that mass infringements of human rights can be transpiring there, do you know what they tell me? They tell me that these people have to go to human rights organizations to seek protection. They have to ask for help—different international organizations. Think of what took place at the trade union building in Odessa and ask yourself who is going to apply to an international organization after the massacre that took place there?

OS:I can’t imagine Russia standing by and watching that happen.

VP:Not in the least—certainly not. We are going to help, but we cannot do so unilaterally. Because the key decisions are to be taken by the Kiev authorities.

You asked about Syria—despite all of the military achievements we are witnessing there, the most important thing that has to be done in Syria is a political settlement. We have made a contribution. Through our actions we have reinforced the government institutions. And we have dealt a great deal of damage to the international terrorists, but let us bear in mind, [as I’ve said before], that ISIS comprises militants from 80 different countries. And let me tell you that ISIS is not just laying claim to Syria or to Iran, they are also laying their claim to Libya and other territories up to Medea, Mecca, and Israel. Certainly we’ve done a great deal of damage to these organizations [ISIS]. But Syria’s problems do not simply stem from international terrorism, they also suffer from internal political difficulties and they have to be settled politically by engagement with the opposition. In our view President Assad is willing to engage in such a dialogue. But what is necessary is that the other side is also willing to do that. We often hear it said that President Assad has to go, but when we ask, “What comes next?” no one is able to respond. There is no answer to that. So I believe that the best, most natural and democratic way forward is to adopt a new constitution to which President Assad has agreed. [As I’ve said], this new constitution would be used as a basis for early elections.

OS:It’s sad when you hear… I’m not sure who speaks for America. Obama says one thing and then Kerry says one thing and then Obama says, “Assad must go.” It’s confusing.

VP:Well, now you understand what’s going on in the United States. But the partners are also very difficult to deal with—there are many differences in the region itself. Certainly attempts have to be made to take into consideration the interests of all those who have participated in this process. The most important thing is to ensure the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Syria, of the Syrian people, and create conditions for refugees to be able to get back to their homes.

OS:It was a nice thing about Palmyra—what the Russians did in Palmyra.

VP:That was the initiative of Mr. Gergiev, the conductor.

OS:But clearing the landmines by the Russian troops—that was hard work.

VP:Certainly, but other things also had to be done such as securing safe passage to the airport in Palmyra. We also had to create conditions for them to be able to stay there overnight. And also we had to push back as far as possible the terrorists from the city. In certain places, the terrorists were only 25 km from the place where the concert took place. And the musicians could hear the artillery firing. In the sun, the temperature was plus 50-degrees Celsius and their instruments were not playing very well. It took courage and also a great deal of effort.

OS:Can we talk about Sochi for a few minutes? What is your feeling about Sochi personally? Your relationship to the city?