President's Commission on the Assassination of - The Warren Commission (Complete Edition)

Mr. Martin. Actually, I tried to avoid most of this stuff.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mr. Martin. I tried to avoid most of these things. I don't know, I figured they would be a sore spot with her, but I don't know whether they were or not.

Senator Cooper. It would be tremendously helpful to this Commission to know if she did talk to you about the assassination of President Kennedy and anything that Lee Oswald might have said about him before and tell us anything——

Mr. Martin. If she had said anything to me about it I would definitely tell you. I cannot recall any incident that—of the conversation between she and Lee about any other assassination or about the President.

Mr. Dulles. Had you ever met or heard of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. Martin. No.

Representative Boggs. Mrs. Oswald lived in your home for how long?

Mr. Martin. About 2½ months.

Representative Boggs. You had many conversations with her in that period of time.

Mr. Martin. No, not really many. I was usually out of the house, and there weren't many opportunities that arose to have a conversation.

Representative Boggs. Did you ever have any reason to believe that she was anything other than what she appeared to be, namely an ordinary housewife who had come to this country as the wife of an American whom she married?

Mr. Martin. Looking back on the whole picture, she doesn't seem quite right. I mean she doesn't fit.

Representative Boggs. What do you mean by that?

Mr. Martin. As a mother and a housewife. She is too cold for one thing.

Representative Boggs. Cold in what way?

Mr. Martin. Emotionally. This thing, I don't know whether it is the Russian woman or what, but this thing would have terrifically upset an American woman, and she was not very upset at all.

Representative Ford. Not upset about the assassination?

Mr. Martin. About her husband.

Representative Ford. About her husband's subsequent death?

Representative Boggs. Well now——

Mr. Martin. She was to a degree. But it didn't ring true.

Representative Boggs. So what do you mean by that. Do you mean that because of her coolness under very terrific—very difficult conditions and a very difficult situation, that maybe she was not just what she appeared to be, and if not, what do you think she was?

Mr. Martin. I have no idea. It is the way she treated, the way she treated contributions, for instance; someone would send a dollar, I don't know, maybe it was her last dollar, and she would look at it and throw it aside and say, "Oh, it is just a dollar." And John Thorne and I kind of built up an image for her or of her, for the American public, and she is not exactly as we picture her in the news articles.

Mr. Redlich. Would you spell that out in more detail?

Mr. Martin. Well, for one thing, I recall instances that she read the Bible every day, she didn't crack a Bible. She got up between 10 and 11 o'clock every morning. The only household chores she did was wash the evening dinner dishes, and occasionally she would vacuum.

Representative Boggs. This may be attributed to lack of energy or laziness.

Mr. Martin. Well, yes, that is true. But she is not a humble person at all.

Representative Ford. Did you ever see her cry or show any comparable emotions?

Mr. Martin. No. The closest I ever saw her to really showing any emotion at all was when, it was about a week after she had been there, she saw a picture, of Jackie Kennedy's picture—a picture of Jackie Kennedy, I don't know whether it was Life Magazine or what.

Representative Boggs. Did she ever do anything or say anything that would give you any reason to believe that maybe she was part of an intelligence system?

Mr. Martin. No. Although I have wondered about it since.

Mr. Redlich. Since when, Mr. Martin?

Mr. Martin. Well, this whole thing, since I got into it. This whole thing seems to me like I have been kind of made a patsy. Robert Oswald wouldn't take her in right after this incident because he was afraid of what might happen, might or might not happen.

The Fords also expressed the same opinion.

Mr. Dulles. What do you mean by the same opinion?

Mr. Martin. That they wouldn't have taken her in at first. Mr. Ford expressed the opinion that he was afraid of what the public reaction might be and he didn't know what to think.

We took her in with the full knowledge that anything could happen, and anything might happen, and it was done strictly on an altruistic basis at first, and then this manager thing came in which I wish it hadn't at all.

But be that as it may, it has happened, and things have been turned upside down.

But then as soon as the Secret Service was pulled off then Robert insisted that she move from my home to his home, and start proceedings to cancel the contracts that are in existence. She was up there—she came back to the doctor on a Tuesday after she left our home, and stopped in at the house and said she wanted to come back to live with us.

Mr. Dulles. When was this approximately? Just after she moved to the Fords or how long after she moved?

Mr. Martin. No, she left my home on Sunday, went to Denton to live with Robert, came back to the doctor, Dr. Bishop, on Tuesday, and came over to the house to pick up some of her belongings, and——

Mr. Redlich. Excuse me, just so the Commission has the date straight, the Sunday you are referring to when she left is the Sunday after her appearance before this Commission?

Mr. Martin. Yes.

Mr. Redlich. That would be the 9th of February, is that correct?

Mr. Martin. Right.

Then on Tuesday, which would be the 11th, she came back to the house, and wanted to move back in.

Representative Ford. Who drove her, how did she get there?

Mr. Martin. Vada Oswald, Robert Oswald's wife.

Mr. Redlich. Are you finished with what you were about to say?

Mr. Martin. It just seemed strange to me that a sudden move should be made like that and then within two days after that, it was Tuesday, and Wednesday, Thursday and I received a letter from her discharging me as her manager or attempting to discharge me.

Representative Boggs. I was asking you about intelligence and that sort of thing.

This would not indicate that sort of thing to you, would it?

Mr. Martin. No, but the whole thing seemed to be a kind of a preplanned thing.

Mr. Redlich. Will you spell that out in more detail because when Congressman Boggs asked you questions as to whether Mrs. Oswald might be part of Soviet intelligence you replied you are now beginning to wonder, and you also replied you wonder if you have been made a patsy.

Could you, in your own words, explain that answer in greater detail?

Mr. Martin. Of course, not knowing how a spy would work or anything, I have no knowledge of anything of this sort, this whole thing shows a lack of gratefulness or something, and actually she showed the same thing with Mrs. Paine. She lived with Mrs. Paine for quite some time. Then Mrs. Paine has been trying to contact her consistently for, well, ever since the assassination, and we have passed letters to her, letters from Mrs. Paine to Marina, wherein she has asked Marina to at least call her or do something, and Marina doesn't want to have anything to do with her.

Mr. Redlich. Has Marina given you a reason for that?

Mr. Martin. She said she doesn't like her.

Mr. Dulles. Do you know why it was that Robert Oswald advised her not to go back to the Paines or did you know that he did?

Mr. Martin. I knew that he did.

Mr. Dulles. Do you know the reason for that?

Mr. Martin. No. He said he just didn't like her.

Mr. Dulles. He gave no reasons?

Mr. Martin. No.

Mr. Redlich. And Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, gave no reason to you as to why she didn't like the Paines?