President's Commission on the Assassination of - The Warren Commission (Complete Edition)

Mr. Jenner. And these persons are the same persons you have heretofore identified?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And is the document of which this 277 is a Xerox copy in the same condition now as it was the time those signatures were affixed to it?

Mr. Oswald. May I have a moment, sir?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Is that likewise true of Exhibit No. 276?

Would you take a look at it, please?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct. And if I may say this about this—on page 3 of Exhibit 276, you will note that towards the upper right-hand part of this page there was—on this copy, there is a dark mark, following the word "royalties."

Representative Ford. What page is that?

Mr. Oswald. Page 3, the sixth line, the word that was crossed off or out of the contract was the word "gifts."

Mr. Jenner. And was that done in the course of the discussion and preceding the execution of the document?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. Jenner. So the document is in the same condition it was when executed?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Would you identify the next exhibit, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. McKenzie. The next exhibit is a photocopy of an investment agency agreement. It is Commission Exhibit No. 278. This exhibit bears the date of December 30, 1963, and is an agreement by and between John M. Thorne and James H. Martin, co-trustees, of Dallas County, Tex., referred to in the exhibit as principal, and the First National Bank of Fort Worth, Tex., referred to in the exhibit as agent.

The exhibit consists of 3 pages, together with a schedule A and a letter addressed to the Trust Department of the First National Bank of Fort Worth, Tex.

This exhibit is a photocopy of a photocopy of a duplicate original.

I have seen the duplicate original upon which it had the names, handwritten names of John M. Thorne, co-trustee, and James H. Martin, co-trustee, as principal, on page 3, and Preston A. Utterbach, Vice President and Trust Officer of the First National Bank of Fort Worth, Tex.

However, these Xerox copies of a copy, being a photocopy, do not have the signatures on, because the second photocopy did not reproduce the signatures.

I have seen those.

Mr. Jenner. The Xerox machine was unable to pick up the signatures?

Mr. McKenzie. No. The prior photocopy was unable to pick up the signatures.

Mr. Dulles. Because they had not been put on, or because they didn't pick them up?

Mr. McKenzie. It would not pick them up, Mr. Dulles. The signatures were on the instrument itself, but the photo machine would not reproduce the signatures.

Mr. Jenner. You actually saw the signatures?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Where did you see that document, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. McKenzie. Marina N. Oswald gave it to me in my office.

Mr. Jenner. Would you state the thrust or substance of those agreements?

Mr. McKenzie. The substance of it is that Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin, as principals, constituted the First National Bank of Fort Worth as the agent to hold certain trust funds, consisting, as shown by the exhibit, attached to this exhibit, of $25,000.

Mr. Jenner. It was deposited with the First National Bank of Fort Worth under this trust and deposit agreement, agency agreement?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir.

I presume that to be true. I know Preston Utterbach. And if his signature was on it, I know that the funds were deposited there at the bank, or else he would not have executed it.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask the source of these funds, if you know?

Mr. McKenzie. I do not know them, sir. But Marina Oswald has told me that she felt that the funds came from contributions made to herself and her children, from various sources, of which I know nothing.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mr. McKenzie.

Did you use the word "felt." She told you she felt?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, I did.

Mr. Jenner. That is the extent of your personal knowledge?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Oswald, do you have any personal knowledge, apart from or in addition to that of Mr. McKenzie, with respect to the source of the funds?

Mr. Oswald. I would say this was monies received through the mails, and delivered in person to Mr. Thorne or perhaps Mr. Martin by various people who wanted to contribute to Marina's welfare and her children's welfare.

Mr. Jenner. Upon what is your statement based? Conversations?

Mr. Oswald. Conversations, and also being——

Mr. Jenner. With whom, sir?

Mr. Oswald. Marina N. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. She related this to you?

Mr. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Anybody else? What about Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin? Had you had conversations with them as to the source of these funds?

Mr. Oswald. Yes, sir. I would say that would be correct, too.

Mr. Jenner. Did these conversations take place in the presence of Mrs. Marina Oswald? Your conversations with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin?

Mr. Oswald. Not that I recall, sir. I am thinking perhaps, when I was aware at first that the $25,000 was to be placed in the trust fund at the First National Bank of Fort Worth, I learned this through a conversation on the telephone.

Mr. Jenner. With whom?

Mr. Oswald. With Mr. Jim Martin.

Mr. Jenner. Are you familiar with Mr. Martin's voice?

Mr. Oswald. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you call him or did he call you?

Mr. Oswald. I do not recall, sir.

Mr. Jenner. When did this take place?

Mr. Oswald. Approximately a week prior to the actual deposit and setting up of the trust fund at the First National Bank in Fort Worth.

Representative Ford. Mr. Jenner, I suggest we get a copy of the deposit slip or some other validation of the actual amount.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you, sir. We will undertake to do that. These documents, as I have indicated, were produced for us during the recess. We don't have the full information.

Perhaps, Mr. McKenzie—you have been quite helpful. You might be further helpful to us—you might have the deposit—evidence of the deposit.

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Jenner, I wish I did have it. However, I know that the First National Bank of Fort Worth would gladly duplicate that for you. And I contemplate that I will be in the process of obtaining a copy from either Mr. Thorne or Mr. Martin in the very near future, because I have asked both of those gentlemen, on behalf of Marina Oswald and her children, for a full and complete accounting as of February 18, 1964, and I will likewise say that she has informed me up until February 18, 1964, she has had no accounting from either of those gentlemen.

Mr. Jenner. Is there another exhibit?

Mr. McKenzie. Yes, sir.

The next exhibit, Mr. Jenner, is Commission Exhibit No. 279, which is a Xerox copy of a power of attorney granted to the firm of Thorne and Leach, attorneys and counselors at law, bearing the date of December 5, 1963, in which it has three—I presume these are omissions from the exhibit—commencing on line 4, following the words "trust funds", there is an omission, and then the word "bequests", and then there is another omission, and on line 5, at the beginning of that line, there is an omission.

Mr. Dulles. What is the nature of the omissions?

Mr. McKenzie. Mr. Dulles, I have been told that the word "gifts" was omitted. The word "gift" was originally in it. But I have been told the word "gift" was omitted, or struck out.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Dulles, I had intended to question the witness about that.

Mr. McKenzie. This contract provides that Marina N. Oswald, "bargain, transfer, sell and assign an undivided 10 percent of all such sums when collected or paid to my account," referring to the fund in the preceding paragraph. The agreement is signed by Marina N. Oswald, witnessed by James H. Martin, and accepted by John M. Thorne.